DCentric

sometimes political correctness isn’t all bad. “let’s just be friends” is better than “i think you’re ugly on the outside, though beautiful on the inside.”

You write:
How painful, to be so crudely and immediately rejected by a long-time friend.

The problem here is using the word “friend” to describe this professional relationship. I think he mistook her professional kindness for friendship. I doubt that someone would utter such hurtfull words to a friend, but I could be wrong. Anyway, the larger issue is this: race … is … the … most … important … thing … in … this … country… period! My position is that no matter what a person’s racial makeup, after spending a few years in this country, they come to believe that they are superior to blacks, particularly black males, of which I am one. Whites, Asians, Hispanics, it doesn’t matter. The one thing they all have in common is the notion that they can disrespect black people at will and without consequence.

Try this the next time you’re out and about. Observe how people of all races react to a black guy. Notice how no one sits next to him on the Metro. Pay particular attention to how people freeze on the esclator if he happens to be behind them. Note how they slow down if he happens to be walking behind them on the sidewalk. Marvel at the nervous smiles he’s given.

I was going to write that after a few days of such observations, you’d be surprised by how racists people are. But then I recalled the final words of your post.

By the way, don’t sweat the paucity of reader reactions. Rome wasn’t built in a day 8-).

it is possible that she was stating facts–if I had relatives that were that concerned with darkness of skin, I’d always relay that info to someone interested in courting them. I’ve had friends tell me before that so-and-so was “christian and wouldn’t be interested in you as you are not.” I treasure those truth-tellers and blunt people over all others.

Anna, Mel, Razib & Nandalal:

Let me thank you for your various feedback! Razib, your feedback I found to be particularly funny, but now that I reflect upon other experiences with her, I seriously doubt that she found me to be unattractive. Thanks all and let us pray for the triumph of the human spirit over such matters!!!!

There are many first generation immigrants who buy the stereotypical images of African Americans. On the other hand, there are also many Hispanic, Asian, Native, etc activists who fight alongside African Americans for equality, equitable living conditions, education, etc. Every major Western industrialized country has a target/scapegoat group. In America, it is African Americans. In the UK, it is South Asians. The Afro-British community is not targeted in the UK to the same level as they are in America. In France, it happens to be North Africans, particularly Algerians.

I’m Indian American and I was astonished how badly I was treated in the UK compared to the US. I realized that there is a privilege to not being the target group. British people would make disparaging and racist comments to my face. It was unbelievable. Even people I lived with would disrespect my culture. It sucks to be on the lowest rung of a fake socio-political totem pole where you have little control to change your position or make your voice heard.

I actually felt that the people who made the worst comments to me in the UK were other people of color. It made me realize how deep self-hate exists in so many communities of color. To be honest, it made me unbelievably sad. Colonization, Jim Crow, all of systems ended over 50 years ago, but there are so many people who have still not learned how to love themselves and be proud of who we are. We can’t continue to just blame these systems. I think this is a failure on the part of their parents/relatives; we must start there.

In saying this, I totally understand where you are coming from. Take solace in the fact that there are people all over the world that are trying to deconstruct these very belief structures. Social belief systems take along time to change, but they are changing. Pres. Obama has had a tremendous impact and I hope many other talented people of all colors, religions, genders etc will follow in his footsteps

It is rarely the color that is seen as the problem, rather it is the attachment to the culture of aggressive superiority or inferiority that is reflected in groups of people based on either color, religion or ethnicity. After having lived in West Africa for 20 years and witnessing tribal and religious wars firsthand, I have come to believe that all that we call “racism” is really an invalid evaluation of ourselves at the extremes of superiority and inferiority. Included in this evaluation is what we are taught by others of our group concerning what other groups think about us.

In regard to the viability of the friendship because of hurtful words, we should remember the words of the old wise man who said, “The wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy”. Wounding words must be interpreted by their import in our lives but are too often interpreted by the pain they cause.

Oh how truly good it is to be Black. Black as night and no one can join us.

Of course, I don’t know AJ and I’ll assume she is a well meaning Indian woman. But when she’s not blogging, she’s probably out in the world being part of the problem. Reality: Asians, Indians and Hispanics generally want to be white. “Don’t say that!” “That’s ridiculous!” Behind closed doors (sometimes in public) the majority is the group they want align with. No problem. It’s survival to want to ride with whoever has the power. It’s a little gutless, but hey tough choices to be made in this life.

From the skin creams to eye taping. All of these groups run to the suburbs and equate being smiled on by the white man as, the sun beaming. Why? Why do you do it? Please tell us. Why do you want acceptance from someone who believes you to be beneath them?Don’t you know he stands alone? The majority isn’t out to make you an “honorary white man” (woman). Their circle is for them. The ultimate mind****. How do you get an entire planet full of people focused on seeking to be like you? Minorities would be better off concentrating less energy on how to be just like wonderful, glowy, sparkling, magical, white people and more energy on respecting their common struggles.

* Please don’t say, “Black people do those things too.” I’m not responsible for crazy Negroes.

TL

Always interesting to hear about how folks are “okay” with people of a race different than their own until dating or marriage becomes part of the equation…

As an AA I actually feel sorry for many of the South Asians I encounter. Most will complain vigorously about racism and stereotyping that they face, but are incapable of understanding the correlation between this and the racism and stereotyping they inflict on others. But what I find to be truly sad is the level of self-loathing many carry internally. They seem to have an obsession with “light-skin” despite the fact that most of them of have dark-brown skin. Dangerous skin-lightening products are commonly used and brazenly marketed in South Asian communities. Images of South Asians in the media are often “photo-shopped” to make them appear lighter than they actually are. Its a shame that they have yet to have their own version of the “black is beautiful” movement. Until they do, they can look down on me as an AA, but I will continue to pity them.

Idealizing physical traits is a fundamental part of human nature. Koreans and Chinese also highly value fair skin, even in their own country, where they aren’t the minority. Many 2nd gen Indian “youth” feel that they have to apologize for their parents racism because of a desire to support the post-Civil Rights ideals of America, to better integrate with their fellow American peers, and out of a common sense of decency and fairness. Sorry to disappoint you but a preference for fair skin is sexual selection at work and confusing it with racism leads to misguided policy making. If you can’t see the distinction, ask yourself why taller people make more money? How do you deter people from height discrimination? How do you write public policies that try to realize such a goal?

Hello DCR, I agree that East Indians do have an issue with skin color and an obsession with “light skin.’ I am a brown skinned, bald, Indian man who gets mistaken for AA. My wife ( also Indian) and I have 4 kids, all with shades from light olive to dark brown. I believe in the beauty of this diversity. My wife still wishes the darker child was lighter. That being said, I don’t feel you have to “pity” Indian people but rather study the chains of colonialism endured by both our cultures. Remember the cast system has been laden in Indian society for thousands of years,not to mention 400 yrs of British rule. The very fact that people comment on my “good hair and features” only illustrate the point. Black is beautiful grew out of a movement, but AA still have issues with skin tone, hair texure, and facial features as well. Seek to understand..not to pity. Peace

Joji:

There is NO such thing as “olive complexion.” More remnants of the fear and loathing attributed to Brown & Black skin people. What’s next “khaki colored complexion; a bit tawny perhaps? There are No green people (ref. olive complexion).

Joji et al:

There is NO such thing as “olive complexion.” More remnants of the fear and loathing attributed to Brown & Black skin people. What’s next “khaki colored complexion; a bit tawny perhaps? There are No green people (ref. olive complexion).

The emotionally/intellectually deceitful and delusional sleight of hand which allows “a people” to buy into the concept of “olive complexion,” reveals an insecurity that is deep-seated; an Achilles heel in their collective self-esteem. What should one make of “a people” who have to make their characteristics the definition of positive qualities/features (hair, teeth, complexion, and their history)? What should someone make of “a people” who actively and repeatedly look askance to the achievements of other people who do not look like them; actually take credit for these achievements in some cases? In other cases, “these people” actively and repeatedly suppress these achievements through omission. All the while, “these people” spend enormous amounts of time, money and emotional energy attempting to acquire the characteristics they “supposedly” despise – e.g. padded undergarments for round bottoms. “These people” will actually endanger their health in these attempts (tanning salons, injections for fuller features). “These people” are all agog when someone fairly (pun intended) resembling them has these features (Kyra Sedgwick; Jennifer Lopez etc). What should one make of such “a people”?

While I am thrilled that this post has generated such an intense discussion, let’s keep it courteous and realize that all may not agree with the points being made, and if this is to be a safe space for discussion, alienating others is the last thing we want. Many people do not believe in “olive skin” but as someone who has spent FAR too much time (and money!) in the makeup aisle, I do believe that undertones exist. There are no actual smurfs and yet people have blue undertones, just like they can have yellow and pink ones. I think “olive” isn’t ideal because I’m a word-nerd who craves specificity and clarity (olive skin can mean too many things, in my opinion, to the point where such a term is meaningless).

Let’s keep the discussion open and productive, even if some of the terms being used are irritating, lazy or just not to our liking. I’d like everyone to feel like their comments are welcome contributions that provoke thought, not conflict.

American RogueDC, it feels like you are being diplomatic by constantly putting “people” in quotes, but the first three times I read this comment it felt a little snarky and then when I read it again, I was just confused. For example, at first– in part because of the subject of this post– I thought you were talking about South Asian people, but we don’t go to tanning salons! Similarly, I was utterly perplexed by the Kyra Sedgwick ref…is she known for having some voluptuous feature? That does it– I’m off to google her, right now.

There are so many different colors of olives, RogueDC

http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds2-4/olives.jpg

Let me lay it down as do how we Indians roll. We are, generally speaking, a conservative and traditional “tribe”. Roots are important to us. We trace our lineages back hundreds of years, some thousands. Our marriages are arranged to other Indians similar in socio-economic, educational, religious, regional and linguistic backgrounds. Even when we buck the system and go in for “love marriages” it is mostly to other Indians. Are we open to including other people in our social circles? Many of us are but that does not mean we want to marry you. If we DO want to marry you then you can be sure there will static coming from our families, which are very tight to the point of being sometimes obsessive.

We are brought up to value education and getting ahead. We don’t do divorce but very rarely. We don’t do out of wedlock births. The teen pregnancies in India are amongst rural villagers who have had their marriages arranged in their teens. We generally don’t do dating (in India) because we are an arranged marriage culture, but that is starting to change somewhat in the urban centers.

If we are going to make close friends with non-Indians it will be amongst people who have similar values. Other than that we will keep you at a respectful distance.

Expecting Indians to jump in head first with blinders on into “mixing” is an expectation that will not be met.

We are, in general, a traditional people. Most of the world was like this at one time, and much of the world still is.

The Western post-modern ideal of jumbling everyone up and coming up “olives” (shout out to RogueDC), is just that – a Post Modern Liberal Western Experiment.

Like Dr. Phil says, “how’s that workin’ for ya?”

Now before everyone starts jumping down my throat for my raw and naked treatise here, you know damn well that this is how your parents or grand-parents think.

“Minorities would be better off concentrating less energy on how to be just like wonderful, glowy, sparkling, magical, white people and more energy on respecting their common struggles.”

The struggles of different minorities are, well, different. Why would you assume that Indians who immigrate to the US have more in common with the minority population than the majority one?

“Try this the next time you’re out and about. Observe how people of all races react to a black guy. Notice how no one sits next to him on the Metro. Pay particular attention to how people freeze on the esclator if he happens to be behind them. Note how they slow down if he happens to be walking behind them on the sidewalk. Marvel at the nervous smiles he’s given.”

That’s because Black men are over-represented in crime statistics. Now, much of this crime may be something as “harmless” as carrying, smoking or selling weed, which I don’t think should be against the law, but nonetheless, when you are a small percentage of the overall population yet OVER represented in crime stats, the word does get out and the public will react, even if its unwarranted in your individual case.

This is going to be blunt and un-pc because, well, that’s just how we Indians are. Now I’m not saying I agree with ALL of the attitudes presented here, but it is an accurate summary of Indians in general. Exceptions will be there of course and they prove, rather than disprove, the rule.

Let me lay it down as do how we Indians roll. We are, generally speaking, a conservative and traditional “tribe”. Roots are important to us. We trace our lineages back hundreds of years, some thousands. Our marriages are arranged to other Indians similar in socio-economic, educational, religious, regional and linguistic backgrounds. Even when we buck the system and go in for “love marriages” it is mostly to other Indians. Are we open to including other people in our social circles? Many of us are but that does not mean we want to marry you. If we DO want to marry you then you can be sure there will static coming from our families, which are very tight to the point of being sometimes obsessive.

We are brought up to value education and getting ahead. We don’t do divorce but very rarely. We don’t do out of wedlock births. The teen pregnancies in India are amongst rural villagers who have had their marriages arranged in their teens. We generally don’t do dating (in India) because we are an arranged marriage culture, but that is starting to change somewhat in the urban centers.

If we are going to make close friends with non-Indians it will be amongst people who have similar values. Other than that we will keep you at a respectful distance.

Expecting Indians to jump in head first with blinders on into “mixing” is an expectation that will not be met.

We are, in general, a traditional people. Most of the world was like this at one time, and much of the world still is.

The Western post-modern ideal of jumbling everyone up and coming up “olives” (shout out to RogueDC), is just that – a Post Modern Liberal Western Experiment.

Like Dr. Phil says, “how’s that workin’ for ya?”

Now before everyone starts jumping down my throat for my raw and naked treatise here, you know damn well that this is how your parents or grand-parents think.

Why would you assume that they don’t, in some cases? Getting racially profiled doesn’t happen to the majority population. Also– not sure if you realize this, but you’re directly responding to a comment I specifically called out (in a different post) for being unproductive. I’d ask that you engage with other ones, instead (and I see that you have started to!).

dcentric, sure in some cases they may. I don’t make broad, sweeping assumptions either way. However African American history is very different from immigrant Indian history in the United States. African Americans have been through slavery, Jim Crow and other things that we have not been through here. Moreover their family structure and religious culture are very different from ours. I don’t assume that just because I share a skin tone similar to them that I share everything else in common. I may or may not share things in common with INDIVIDUALS, but the history, culture, lifestyles are very different demographic to demograhpic.

Perhaps she wasn’t saying he was too dark in a way that was meant to be insulting or a put down, but a way that suggested that they(her nieces) wouldn’t be interested in him(or any man) who wasn’t of a certain hue…whether they be Black American or Southeast asian? Perhaps the c0-worker was only voicing how her nieces felt? What’s a shame isn’t that the woman said what she said, but that the man internalized his inferiority at being “too dark” and took offense.

just stumbled over this blog and i have to say that most (native)ethiopians doesnt consider themselves to be black but they never ever consider the black people to be inferiour or the white ppl to be superior in that case!! the definition “Black” is a name collective given by europeans to all africans and ethiopians just bluently doesnt accept this definition! Ethiopians will always be “HABESHA” and after being firstly”HABESHA” then they consider themselves to be African! so please dont manipulate this way of thing to justify the racism of other ppl!!

just stumbled over this blog and i have to say that most (native)ethiopians doesnt consider themselves to be black but they never ever consider the black people to be inferiour or the white ppl to be superior in that case!! the definition “Black” is a name collective given by europeans to all africans and ethiopians just bluently doesnt accept this definition! Ethiopians will always be “HABESHA” and after being firstly”HABESHA” then they consider themselves to be African! so please dont manipulate this way of thing to justify the racism of other ppl!!